why do players leave for the junior A leagues

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nfnucks99
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why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by nfnucks99 »

Why exactly do players leave for leagues like the ojhl, nojhl etc... other then out west is it worth it? I don't understand why a player would want to leave the league for a team that is going to be charging much more just to have that A rather then a B. Is there really that much more ice time and exposure?

On another note why doesn't the gojhl have a show like in the oj today. Even the gmhl has a show and you can find every game on their YouTube channel?
Welland Cougars
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by Welland Cougars »

Don't think you will see many players leaving for the NOJHL, just won't happen. That league is a mess.

OJHL is all about getting the exposure. The difference in the caliber of hockey is negligible, but the OJ does a much better job at promoting their kids and making it easily accessable for scouts. Multiple showcases and other events see to that.
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Port hockey1
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by Port hockey1 »

nfnucks99 wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:32 pm Why exactly do players leave for leagues like the ojhl, nojhl etc... other then out west is it worth it? I don't understand why a player would want to leave the league for a team that is going to be charging much more just to have that A rather then a B. Is there really that much more ice time and exposure?

On another note why doesn't the gojhl have a show like in the oj today. Even the gmhl has a show and you can find every game on their YouTube channel?
A lot of kids think it will be better hockey because of the name(Jr.A). The league looks to be fairly competitive. 2nd & 7th seed only 2 points apart in the one conference, when the playoffs started. But the level of play is pretty much the same as this league. A lot of them realize that and return within two years. Others end up on great teams in the OJHL and decide to stay.
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Undertaker
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by Undertaker »

Some advisors will try to convince players that the OJ is a superior league. It does cost the players 6-10k to play and they do appear to move higher percentages of players to NCAA D1 schools, It is a better marketed league than the GOJHL, the OHA claims it is a better league although most know the differences are marginal.
SebJHockey
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by SebJHockey »

The NOJHL is better than people think.

I had an offer to work for a team up North but said no but after spending time up there, watching games, talking to scouts, player, etc it is still a development that has a pretty impressive number of former players playing D3 in the states. Attendance is great in some places. All teams travel with coach buses and hotels are paid for. I know one player who went up to the NOJ this season and is in top 10 in scoring the league has made him fall in love with the game again. Getting all the ice time he could wish for. They helped him find a job, get his education in order, and may be pushing for a championship this year.

The league wide championship with winner from the AJ, and BCHL as well is broadcasted on national tv and tons of NCAA D1 teams attend to scout.


Comparing leagues is fine when comparing anything to the GMHL. But its not fair comparing the GOJHL to the NOJHL. Each league has something great to offer.
Caledonia Fan
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by Caledonia Fan »

Some good most posts on this subject. And there's always lots to talk about.
I have to admit that I thought the same way. I guess it's up to the player but it's hard to argue with some of the success some of these players have had moving up.Look at this year and this is just a few.
Chris Janzen 3yrs with Welland now stars with Trenton
Josh Astorino 2 years playing with Thorold now stars with Georgetown
Brayden Stortz 2 years with Welland now stars with Wellington ( a Welland boy ) finished second in scoring this year in the OJHL.
What would have happen if these players stayed in the GOJHL. They all made a good move to move on.
But if you want to read a good forum on JR-A hockey. Check out "in the cage with tigerpaws"
These guys know JR-A hockey.There's a good post on there" cheapest teams in the OJHL"
Check it out you will be surprise on some of the posts. Like Trenton, Cobourg and Georgetown don't charge anything to play for them.
And the post about some parents paying 10 k.
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Port hockey1
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by Port hockey1 »

Caledonia Fan wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:11 am Some good most posts on this subject. And there's always lots to talk about.
I have to admit that I thought the same way. I guess it's up to the player but it's hard to argue with some of the success some of these players have had moving up.Look at this year and this is just a few.
Chris Janzen 3yrs with Welland now stars with Trenton
Josh Astorino 2 years playing with Thorold now stars with Georgetown
Brayden Stortz 2 years with Welland now stars with Wellington ( a Welland boy ) finished second in scoring this year in the OJHL.
What would have happen if these players stayed in the GOJHL. They all made a good move to move on.
But if you want to read a good forum on JR-A hockey. Check out "in the cage with tigerpaws"
These guys know JR-A hockey.There's a good post on there" cheapest teams in the OJHL"
Check it out you will be surprise on some of the posts. Like Trenton, Cobourg and Georgetown don't charge anything to play for them.
And the post about some parents paying 10 k.
I couldn't believe what Milton charges. :o
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Marcie
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by Marcie »

I couldn't believe it tonight when Ron MacLean mentioned on Hockey Night in Canada that there are presently 147 Provincial Jr. A. players playing in the NHL. He mentioned on how that league produces a lot of players that make it to the NHL too.
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

I love how they group in the MTJHL....we were not part of the Provincial Junior loop...actually hated them and our teams routinely beat the crap out of them!!!

It just feeds to the propaganda that the OJ is better than the GO! First things first....get rid of Buffalo as it does absolutely NOTHING for the credibility of the league. In fact, if anything, it makes the GO look bush and not comparable to the OJ. Send them packing...they can play in the NA3HL and could win a handful of games.
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by RocketGirl »

In 6 days we'll find out who's jumping ship next season.
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RagingBS
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by RagingBS »

Marcie wrote: Thu May 25, 2017 9:57 pm I couldn't believe it tonight when Ron MacLean mentioned on Hockey Night in Canada that there are presently 147 Provincial Jr. A. players playing in the NHL. He mentioned on how that league produces a lot of players that make it to the NHL too.
I believe it goes to show that major junior and ncaa aren't the only routes to the NHL. The USHL has shown some very respectable draft numbers in the past as has the BCHL. The OJ is getting some recognition now as well. As bitter a pill as it maybe to swallow, the B classification hurts the league as far as being put on the NHL radar, and yes I am aware the Tyler Wall was drafted out of Jr B, but he is an exception to the rule. On a positive side Ron pointed out that 147 NHL players (an average of almost 5 per team) did not get there by way of the traditional routes. Perhaps the landscape is changing
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

The landscape is changing..but..why wait for the powers that be to do the landscaping for you! Sit down, and make decisions in the best interest of the league moving forward and cut your own grass.

I have heard that Junior A status will increase the value of teams. Please do not tell me this transition committee's primary objective is a financial windfall? I would take a Junior B team with 500 fans per game any day as an investment compared to a Tier II team getting less than 200, which is about the league average. Hell, some Junior C teams are even more profitable then most Junior A teams!

Has anyone seen or heard from Chuck Williams lately?
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by RocketGirl »

He's at the Hockey Hall of Fame today handing out OHA awards.
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cchlounger
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by cchlounger »

Being an OJHL guy and frequent contributor to "In the Cage with Tigerpaws", I likely can offer a bit of insight on this particular topic.

If anyone has a particular question or two, or would simply like clarification on anything OJ related, please ask away.
I'm also somewhat in the know on the happenings of the NOJHL, CCHL as well as the PJHL (Jr. C).

I'm new to your forum, so for the time being, Ill respectfully try to leave my opinions (or is it bias) about leagues for another time.

Having a relative that played for one of this seasons finalists, I am now more equipped to speak with authority on the GOJ (what we OJHL people refer to your league) as it pertains to head to head comparisons with the Ontario Jr. A leagues.

By the way, you ladies and gentlemen have some great forums and I truly enjoy reading them.

Cheers

cchlounger
RagingBS
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by RagingBS »

From what I understand most of the OJ teams are pay to play just like minor hockey (or more) where as the other Jr A leagues in Canada are more traditional in the sense that the player is only on the hook for a smaller league administration fee and billets are included.
cchlounger
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by cchlounger »

In the OJHL, only the Georgetown Raiders (league champions...2016/17) and the Trenton Golden Hawks (league finalist) did not charge players last season. That's it!

Everyone else charged an approximate range between $3,00 and $10,00. I'd suggest most OJ clubs are in the $4,500 to $6,500 area.

It is well known that the Golden Hawks are up for sale and it's rumoured Georgetown may be on the block soon as well. So, the free rides offered by these two clubs may be coming to a halt very soon.

The CCHL is also pay to play.

The OJHL league landscape is changing rapidly, but the one constant, seems to be the hated "Daddy Ownership" currently plaguing many tier II Junior A franchises.

Much like what I see in the GO, our league seems to have a huge leadership void and lack of clear direction.
I mean, our own commissioner allowed Trenton to proceed to play unfettered after the deadline knowing they had an illegal roster. For their lack of effort, it is said that the OJHL and the Golden Hawks (led by infamous Jerome DuPont) were each fined $20,000.
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

CCHL,

That was the biggest issue with the OJ a number of years ago was the fact that there were "Daddy" owners who almost singlehandedly ran the league into the ground. In fact, it was so bad and the talent was so lacking that many NCAA "guys" I know hardly had the league on their radar.

It has gotten better but the league is nowhere near the caliber of the BCHL, AJHL and maybe even the SJHL. Yes, Cobourg won this season but they loaded up on players much like Trenton does. I guess when Trenton has a 500 avg for attendance they can siphon some of that revenue back to the players.

I am perplexed by the GOJHL wanting "A" status. I hope it is not a decision based on "value" of the "A" designation. Other than that, with the exception of having the luxury of sucking on the OHA/OHF tiit (spelling altered out of respect to members), the GOJHL is in a much better spot financially as a whole. One only needs to look at the attendance to understand that having the "A" will not have ppl slamming through the door.

To understand the GOJHL and the issues, you need to first look at the loss of players to the OJHL because advisers are telling these kids "you need to go to the OJHL if you want to be seen". I find this an absolutely ridiculous notion. It makes me wonder if there are actual agreements in place for potential kickbacks for these "advisors" to steer kids away from the GOJHL to the OJHL. For me, and I have an unbiased view, the biggest difference between the OJHL and the GOJHL is one of geography. I believe that the top 1/2 of the teams could compete. Mind you, having the Thorold's (ownership), Buffalo's (competitive) and Lambton Shores (ownership) do absolutely nothing for the credibility of the league. But as you said, with the right leadership in place, these issues could be easily rectified. But, you have to wonder what the relationship is between MS and CW with the OHA and OHF and whether or not they are just towing the line the same way the OHA/OHF and member partners do with their membership. It is definitely a political environment and there needs to be someone in place with b*lls enough to make league decisions without the interference of the OHA. Could the OHA step in and override a league decision, technically yes. Would they? Absolutely not! The one constant you hear from any level of governance in this province is "best interests of the game" which is laughable. The decisions made in this province have had very little to do with the "best interests" of anything other than for those who govern for a very, very long time.

I have said all along that Junior"A" is not going to happen for the GOJHL. And if there is a "secret" deal in place between the OJHL and the OHA then that is something that can be addressed as you continue to build your league brand. Something that I have not seen from the GOJHL. I have not seen any sort of statement from the GOJHL regarding the Cambridge situation since the original statement from CW. Where is he? I find it reprehensible that he is not "out there" trying to get things resolved and working on league issues. Makes me wonder if he is just a puppet for the OHA to keep the masses happy. It seems that GOJHL league executives, once removed, end up at the OHA!

At the end of the day, I have no issues with the OJHL. I have actually played at both levels and firmly believe that, if the GOJHL wanted these players bad enough, they would put programs and components in place that would make these kids WANT to stay here. I have been in leadership roles before in this sport, you need to be able to separate league directives/initiatives from the desires of those governing bodies who, for lack of a better word, refuse to actually govern!
RagingBS
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by RagingBS »

I had an advisor try to convince me that the OJ was a better league than the BCHL. I think these some of these advisors get incentives from teams if they can steer players. I am not an OJ fan for many reasons, the daddy ownership issue made the league more about deep pockets than talent and destroyed any credibility the league had. Just my opinion
cchlounger
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by cchlounger »

Some absolutely great points. I'm definitely not an apologist for the OJHL, and agree with most of what you are saying in regards to the OJHL.

However, I do not believe there is some hidden agenda or motive coming from advisers or agents, trying to push players towards the OJ. It's a tad far fetched that kickbacks are happening. That simply is not true.

In saying that, we all are aware of the nefarious stuff that goes on and the shadiness of the whole adviser thing. Don't get me wrong, there are some wonderful people who are really trying to guide and look out for the best interest of these young men, but often, its too self serving.

To simplify things to its most basic point, its all about the A, as opposed to the B designation. It's a fact that scouts are more prevalent in the GTA and the city of Toronto and those two things combined lead one to believe that the OJHL is indeed "The League of Choice" (lol) in Southern Ontario.
Reality or fiction, it is what it is.

Believe me when I say, these guys who run the OJHL aren't wise enough or have their sh*t together enough to pull off such a feat! Remember, this is a league that historically has splintered in the last decade and can't even figure out that one of their teams is playing with an illegal roster. Don't for one second give these guys that much credit.

In saying all that, in my humble opinion, there are slight differences in comparing the GOJHL to the OJHL:

For the most part, the difference in regards to the top six forwards is negligible. However, the bottom six or seven guys is where the difference becomes evident. In the GO, the depth and balance just isn't there like it tends to be with clubs in OJ.
It's obviously not as cut and dried as that, but, that's what I see and that's what scouts see, too.

Many of the games I witness are in the tough East Division of the OJHL, but, that certainly does not preclude the rest of the teams in the league. And the East, for the most part, is where the best coaches in the OJ reside, where systems are a must and tough checking is a constant. One thing I've noticed over the years is that high scoring, smaller guys coming from the GO struggle initially, if not their first full season in the OJHL's East Division. Not always the case, but, quite often.
It's a big adjustment not having the room they're used to, or the need to go to the net hard and have that compete level to succeed.
From talking with dozens of GO boys over the years whom have made the jump, to a man they simply say it's a faster, tougher game.
That's not my opinion, that's right from the horses mouth.

Points wise, it would definitely be more adventagious for smaller, skilled players transferring from the GO, to play for clubs in the OJHL West. The style of play mirrors the GOJHL a little closer, with its wide open play and higher scoring games.

But for those who want the challenge and wanna go where the scouts truly appreciate, in terms of everyday compete level, the OJHL East would certainly be the best bet within the league.
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

cchl,

The advisors thing...I wouldn't put it past some of these guys to push kids to the OJ. I had a friend who contacted me. An advisor wanted $7k to "advise". I asked him what his son wanted to do and he said Prep school. He was told to play 1 year in the OJ and then Prep would be an option. This kid was a Minor Midget AAA player. I told him to keep his money, made a few calls to some good friends who are in the US Prep game and voila, the kid is going to one of the best prep schools in the US..athletically and more importantly, academically! So I do not for a minute believe that there isn't some "business" going on. It happens at the highest levels of hockey in this country so why shouldn't it at lower levels?

I played in the old Metro League and that was good hockey because it was well run and they operated within the best interests of the league. We got into a pissing contest with Brent Ladds and the OHA and left. Guess who came knocking on OUR door two years later? The OJ has definitely made some strides but it isn't all that and until the league's administration operates within the best interests of the league, it will still be a semi-gong show. But look at the guys who are involved and have made the decisions...they are Hockey Canada guys just towing the line!

I still would love to see anything about this "secret" agreement the OHA has with the OJHL. It would make for a great read!
cchlounger
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by cchlounger »

The story about your friend is quite interesting, sad and upsetting all at the same time. Thank you for putting that out there, as stories such as yours need to be brought to light.

It truly is amazing how slimy some individuals in the game truly are. Be it guys on the inside, like Jerome Dupont of the Trenton Golden Hawks (OJHL) or guys on the periphery like so-called advisors, they are around.

As for the "secret agreement", I think it is regarded as an after thought in the minds of most OJHL fans. As far as I know, its a held belief that that is true. The OJHL has come out and basically said such. And that's why nobody east of Hamilton even blinks an eye with all the endless chatter of the GO becoming tier II Junior A. As far as I have been led to believe, its a non starter and has less than a zero chance of happening......at least in the near future. The GO can make application after application to the Ontario governing bodies, but I've been informed (and CW knows it), they don't even have the power to do a single thing, even if they wanted to. Hockey Canada is staunchly opposed to adding more teams, and they make the rules!

As for the Metro, I remember it fondly. I can recall teams such as Henry Carr, Richmond Hill and Thornhill, to name just a few.

And for those reading and wondering what OJHL teams get the D1 schollies, and why a player went there or didn't.......it's quite simple. If a GOJHL player decides to jump ship and go the Jr. A route for the exposure, I'd make damn sure he didn't go to about 85% of the teams in our league. He's better off staying put, in his hometown and enjoying life in the GO.

Historically (over the last 20 years or so), you need look no further than four or five teams. Topping the list of clubs who get the scouts and scholarships would be the Wellington Dukes (the Goaltending Factory & more), followed by the Oakville Blades (teams are built and bred for the NCAA), St. Mikes (it's the tradition & lore) and to a lesser degree Georgetown and Kingston.
ILuvHackey
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by ILuvHackey »

cchlounger wrote: Tue May 30, 2017 2:21 pmAs for the "secret agreement", I think it is regarded as an after thought in the minds of most OJHL fans. As far as I know, its a held belief that that is true. The OJHL has come out and basically said such. And that's why nobody east of Hamilton even blinks an eye with all the endless chatter of the GO becoming tier II Junior A. As far as I have been led to believe, its a non starter and has less than a zero chance of happening......at least in the near future. The GO can make application after application to the Ontario governing bodies, but I've been informed (and CW knows it), they don't even have the power to do a single thing, even if they wanted to. Hockey Canada is staunchly opposed to adding more teams, and they make the rules!
And yet they keep putting out requests for GOJ teams to apply to join the league as junior A...

So they do have the ability to add more teams.
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

It's just the dangling of the proverbial dangling of the carrot. Sure they will out it out there...but they will put conditions on the application to make it utterly impossible.

Hockey Canada makes the rules, this is true. But they also like to mind their business when it comes to the goings on with the branches. I have said all along...Hockey Canada is more interested in their golf vacays and their international hardware than actually governing.

Ironically...the head of the CJHL is none other than Brent Ladds.....an OHA guy!
cchlounger
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by cchlounger »

Yes it is very true, Brent found himself a new gig. Seems as though Mr Ladds just won't go away quietly into retirement. Who could blame him.....he appears to be the King of the Mountain....getting all those free trips and perks....lol.

For the record, I may be an OJ guy, but, I completely understand the unfairness of all this.

In saying that, the GOJ (sorry, so use to referring to it as such) has a great product and doesn't need to have an A associated with it to make it legit in the minds of hockey people throughout the province and country.

Until the day happens that your league gets properly reclassified, be proud of having one of the best leagues in Canada, whether it be Jr A, Jr B or Jr C.

You have great hockey to enjoy in your end of the province!
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

I agree!! Now if only a few owners who believed in the product and brand would take the lead!!
cchlounger
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by cchlounger »

Very shortly, meaning tomorrow June 1st, the yearly process of GO players defecting to the OJHL (and other Jr A leagues) will start up once again.
Will it be a trickle or a stream of talent departing the GOJHL?

We should know via twitter and other means of media within the next 24 hours what the exodus might look like?
RagingBS
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by RagingBS »

I personally think it will be more of a stream because many of the Cambridge and Thorold former players are up for grabs. I have only heard one GOJHL name regularly mentioned going to the BCHL but I am sure there will be more to come.
cchlounger
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by cchlounger »

I have zero confirmation of impeding signings, but I do know,the Fisher boys from Lambton Shores were spotted at at least one OJHL East spring camp recently.

Does it mean they are about to sign with an OJHL club? Absolutely not....but, it does tell me that they are/were kicking tires and vice versa, in terms of the team(s).

As for many (but not all) Cambridge and/or Thorold players, I don't see them signing with an OJHL team. Many, simply are not good enough or aren't at an age (young or old) that would appeal to most teams.

Tyler Harrison and Trenton native Ryan Smith (might be spelled wrong) might be names to watch. The former Ayr Centennial (Harrison) and Smitty already have limited experience playing in the OJ.

Cheers everyone.
cchlounger
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by cchlounger »

Talking to a friend of mine in the know on tenders,(he's a scout in a different league), I've been told a number of GOJHL goalies have been out making the rounds at various OJ spring camps.
Again, not saying any of these guys are or aren't leaving the GO for Jr A, but, I do have some names of interest.

Confirmed to at least one camp....here's a sampling of just a few names: Albano (Waterloo), Poulin (Strathroy), Link (Brantford), Lamarche (Pelham), and Slobodzian (Thorold).

One would also assume that after an outstanding playoff run with Newmarket, Kirk would be a given to return to the Canes.

And of course, it's to be expected that Brantford property Will Rawski will eventually land with Carleton Place of the CCHL

And of course
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

And until this league, it's executive and leadership get their heads out of their collective arses and build/add components to the GOJHL the spring mass exodus will continue again and again and again!
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