why do players leave for the junior A leagues

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ILuvHackey
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by ILuvHackey »

It has everything to do with the A moniker and not being able to retain players rights. When OJ teams can just pay 1500 for a player who's been developed in the GOJ, it's a no brainer.

Players looking to move up go to the OJ and the bulk of players who come from the OJ/NOJ/CCHL are guys who are going to school in the GOJ footprint or want a bit of cash from a handful of teams.
cchlounger
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by cchlounger »

Moves have started to come in. Some Nas transferring to the OJ so far are Albano to Georgetown, VanShubert to Aurora, Bryce Martin to Aurora, Jason Stacelbeck to Aurora, Mitchell Morrison to Burlington, Holden Hyrsko to Georgetown, Brendan D'Agostino to Georgetown via trade with rights holder Oakville, Shane Donovan to Mississauga, Fraser Kirk returns to Newmarket, Nolan Regan to Newmarket, and Ian Vucko to Newmarket.
cchlounger
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by cchlounger »

Here's some more: Andrew McIntyre to Oakville, Spencer Kersten to Oakville, Zack Bramwell to Oakville, Brendon Landry to Orangeville, Masson Sarris to Orangeville, Kristian Hufsky to Orangeville and Dante Sheriff to Toronto Jr. Canadiens.
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

Again, I just do not understand the leadership of this league!! This continues to happen year after year after year!!

Honestly, I am beginning to believe that the people overseeing this league and the teams know nothing about the game nor the needs/wants of prospective and current players!!!

I think a MAJOR change in focus, mandate and leadership is needed IMMEDIATELY or this league will continue to slip off the radar of those it could be relevant to!
Undertaker
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by Undertaker »

One of the very few things the OJ does better than GOJHL is promoting it's product. The OJ has its website set up for 2017/18 showing most or all of the transactions to date. The GOJHL site is still on last season. I would assume some teams are making some official signings now.
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

Again...this league lacks leadership! It's obvious they do not understand (or care) what is mainstream and what kids want! When you start to rest on your laurels, you begin to look more and more like the governing bodies in this province and country! Think outside the box and be creative!! When you do, you will realize that whether or not it is "A" or a "B", the kids will dictate both the level of play and who comes to observe them on a nightly basis. If you don't want to think outside the box, you will remain second fiddle in this part of the province just the way the OHA likes and wants you to be!

I need to ask again...does ANYONE have a copy of the GOJHL Constitution, Rules and Regs and By-Laws??
ILuvHackey
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by ILuvHackey »

FrozenPonds wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:58 pm Again...this league lacks leadership! It's obvious they do not understand (or care) what is mainstream and what kids want! When you start to rest on your laurels, you begin to look more and more like the governing bodies in this province and country! Think outside the box and be creative!! When you do, you will realize that whether or not it is "A" or a "B", the kids will dictate both the level of play and who comes to observe them on a nightly basis. If you don't want to think outside the box, you will remain second fiddle in this part of the province just the way the OHA likes and wants you to be!

I need to ask again...does ANYONE have a copy of the GOJHL Constitution, Rules and Regs and By-Laws??
You still don't get it.

The level of play IS good. But teams can't retain talent because it's not Junior A. Period. Even teams who do well at promoting their players to school feel the pinch. The few programs who don't feel it as much, generally have some funds to make it appealing (free play, free equipment, maybe some gas money) versus paying a couple grand to play A.
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

No I do get it!

The biggest battle facing this league is combatting the image that the OJHL is "the place to be". I know lots of guys, and I say that conservatively, who played in this league and went on to play professionally. Some of those same players now work in advisory roles within the game or are assistant coaches within the NCAA at their alma maters or others.

The GOJHL, without their "A" status seems reserved to just play the "status quo" game and let the mass exodus of players continue year after year. I question whether you understand. You put a program in play that addresses the needs of current and prospective players and you have a winning formula. Players will go to where they think they can get the most development and exposure. The only difference, from a merketing and brand perspective, is the fact that the OJHL gets all the accolades because that is what the OHA wants and the GOJHL is resigned to just "go through the motions".

There are many guys I know who would jump right in and assist in the branding of this league through simple promotion. It doesn't take much. And you bring up a "couple" of grand? From what I have heard, and maybe cchllounger can put more perspective on it, it costs a lot more than a couple of grand to play in the OJHL. I would also assume that if you are a top flight talent, you would probably pay less or nothing at all. It is all supply and demand economics. And that is one of the things that the GOJHL should emphasize IF they had a marketing/branding plan is that players DO NOT pay to play.

Give me two years from a Player Personnel perspective and the OJHL wouldn't have the influence on the GOJHL that it has today!
ILuvHackey
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by ILuvHackey »

I know for a fact they pay to play in the GOJ too. Sorry.

Some teams pay the fees because they have budgets -- like Stratford, Elmira, Chatham, Caledonia, etc.
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

Yes, a registration fee imposed by OHA/HC is a little different than a $5-7k team fee in the OJHL...who still have to pay that fee as well\!
RagingBS
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by RagingBS »

Other than the teams mentioned above it isn't uncommon for players to be dinged for $1500-$2000 so yes as much as the GOJHL doesn't care to admit it, they are using a pay to play system too. The OJHL is significantly more and frequently they don't even cover the out of town players billets for that $5-7K. 5 years ago the players weren't asked for anything. Times have changed in Ontario and not for the better, but judging by the amount that are jumping to the OJHL, they must be convinced that they are getting value in additional exposure for the extra 5K or so, or they don't think they are getting enough exposure for the money paid here. I had read somewhere that the reason for Ontario's pay to play system was based on supply and demand. Due to a surplus of hockey talent compared to roster spots available people will pay to find a place.
ILuvHackey
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by ILuvHackey »

FrozenPonds wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:51 am Yes, a registration fee imposed by OHA/HC is a little different than a $5-7k team fee in the OJHL...who still have to pay that fee as well\!
I know for a fact most of the Cambridge players paid around 2K this year.

It's not 5, but it's not chump change either.
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RocketGirl
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by RocketGirl »

All the AAA parents that paid $10K for their kid to play minor hockey can afford $5K for them to play Jr., So teams and leagues are willing to charge it.
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FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

Not so long ago, the OJHL, OHA, OHF and Hockey Canada were critical of the Greater Metro Hockey League and their "Pay-to-Play" model. It was often the basis of the attacks against the GMHL that it was a "profit" driven league and people were making lots of money off of the players. I guess all their sh** really does stink!

As for the kids forking out cash to go play, they are just drinking the kool-aid the OHA and the OJHL serve them. That is a fundamental reason why I believe that the GOJHL has done a piss-poor, if any, job of promoting their league and brand.

Just read on another forum how someone stated that the title of a thread should be changed to "GOJHL to OJHL migration". It is almost a comedic view from supporters of the OJHL.

I am sure that despite some philosophical differences here, we all want what is in the best interests of this league. This league has a historical significance to it. Teams are deeply rooted in the communities they play in for the most part. But the fact remains, this league appears to be going nowhere with the current decision-makers in place. I still would like to know how the present Commish got this job to begin with? If he was put there by the OHA, then I would suggest he is just towing the line WITH the OHA.

How else do you explain Buffalo continuing to be allowed to participate in the league!!! Who cares if they paid their OHA fees, it should be a league decision and quite frankly, that team has done a discredit to the league and has, in the words of the OHA, has brought the game of hockey into disrepute! Ultimately it plays into the hands of the OHA AND the OJHL that the GOJHL is a far inferior product! But as long as the OHA gets their fees then everything is good!
RagingBS
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by RagingBS »

RocketGirl wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:07 pm All the AAA parents that paid $10K for their kid to play minor hockey can afford $5K for them to play Jr., So teams and leagues are willing to charge it.
Those AAA games are also free to attend, and there is no souvenier revenue to help off set costs. Often enough players could get individual sponsors in minor hockey to cover some of those costs. Any surplus in fees are also returned to the players at seasons end. I don't think junior teams are interested in opening their books and returning excess funds
Welland Cougars
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by Welland Cougars »

RagingBS wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:04 pm
RocketGirl wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:07 pm All the AAA parents that paid $10K for their kid to play minor hockey can afford $5K for them to play Jr., So teams and leagues are willing to charge it.
Those AAA games are also free to attend, and there is no souvenier revenue to help off set costs. Often enough players could get individual sponsors in minor hockey to cover some of those costs. Any surplus in fees are also returned to the players at seasons end. I don't think junior teams are interested in opening their books and returning excess funds
Yes the AAA games are free, but they don't provide equipment, sticks, training, transportation etc. that the OPJHL does. That's part and parcel of the 5-7k fee. Teams need to meet certain requirements re - amount of sticks and much more.
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

No offense but...back in the Metro Junior days we used to get EVERYTHING for free other than our skates, shin pads, elbow pads and chest protectors. We got an allotment of sticks for the year and guess what, that was before the mess that is the OHA/OJHL and we still paid the big zero!

So tell me now why there are any "Pay-to-Play" to begin with? What I think is that the owners/OHA saw that the GMHL was flourishing at $7-10k per year and I guess they wanted to lay the tracks for their own gravy train!
Undertaker
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by Undertaker »

At 5-7K per player someone is making a lot of cash. CHL teams provide all of the same plus education packages and they pay their players.
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

Not to mention their crock of sh*t known as the OJDL!! Basically a summer league "affiliated" with the teams..all for the low, low price of $5k plus per player!
cchlounger
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by cchlounger »

Under the column of useless information to pass along, yet, might be of interest to a handful of parents or players in the GO who have interest in the OJHL.

Ex NHLer and rather infamous individual, Jerome DuPont is out as Coach and General Manager of the TRENTON GOLDEN HAWKS.

It is being reported, he has landed the coaching job at the University of Toronto.
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

New ownership group I have heard..so the writing was on the wall!
ILuvHackey
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by ILuvHackey »

FrozenPonds wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:23 pm No offense but...back in the Metro Junior days we used to get EVERYTHING for free other than our skates, shin pads, elbow pads and chest protectors. We got an allotment of sticks for the year and guess what, that was before the mess that is the OHA/OJHL and we still paid the big zero!

So tell me now why there are any "Pay-to-Play" to begin with? What I think is that the owners/OHA saw that the GMHL was flourishing at $7-10k per year and I guess they wanted to lay the tracks for their own gravy train!
There are less hockey fans, less corporate sponsors, more teams clawing for said sponsorship... It's simple economics. Trust me, teams who can afford to not charge, don't. And they use that to recruit well. Teams that are community owned have to charge something just to break even.

Teams in Junior don't make money. CHL teams barely make money aside from a few.
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

Economics..you are definitely right! More and more and more teams means more registration monies for the OHA! And at the end of the day, isn't that who is the most important to be happy? (tongue firmly in cheek)
ILuvHackey
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by ILuvHackey »

FREE HOCKEY FOR EVERYONE! The Taxpayer can pay for it.... somehow....
RagingBS
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by RagingBS »

Why is it that in Ontario players are asked to fork out thousands of dollars to play but in other provinces they are not? It used to be free, and it included equipment, billets, transportation etc. For the teams that are getting 600+ fans per game they should be asking less or nothing to play. The OHA and GOJHL fees are nothing more than a tax on the players that never existed until recently. It would be interesting to know where it is spent. I think someone mentioned the cost of playing AAA hockey being the driving factor with the logic being because they paid the full freight each year in minor hockey they should continue to pay the same $ amount even with revenue coming in that should offset the costs. . The difference is those organizations are non-profit, where junior teams are businesses that can and do generate revenue through ticket sales, sponsorships etc. Lets not forget that expenses for billets, equipment, ice, buses are also tax deductible for someone. At the end of the day some individuals are making a lot of cash on junior hockey in Ontario, especially in the OJHL. As for the taxpayer being on the hook for anything most of these teams are important parts of the communities they are in and the players often give back in many ways. That's why teams can secure major sponsors and reduced costs in the communities that want junior hockey.
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RocketGirl
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by RocketGirl »

Not all Jr hockey teams are profit corporations. And it was me who mentioned the AAA costs, but you can't tell me that's not how some teams look at it. You paid $10K for your kid to play 1 season, which means your willing to do it, so why not charge $5K or more, on top of the OHA fee.

But you guys are complaining about the jump to the OJ, but how is it different from a kid playing minor hockey in his hometown and then jumping to AAA in his Bantam and Midget years.
Queen of the GOJHL

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FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

The taxpayer is already on the hook for it. The ministry of Heritage and Sport already gives Hockey Canada upwards of $4.5 million per year to "govern". That money is then allocated to each provincial branch. In Ontario, we have 3 branches. The OHA falls under the OHF. The OHF allocates an equal distribution to each "Member Partner" which includes the OHA.
FrozenPonds
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by FrozenPonds »

Not much different at all.

But let's look at your perspective for a moment. Let's say a kid plays minor hockey in....Port Stanley. He is good enough to play AAA come Bantam and decides to go and try out for Elgin-Middlesex (assuming that is the home centre). So he can go an try out for AAA with Elgin Middlesex as it is the highest level of hockey recognized for his area. In Junior, the OHA has dictated, apparently, with the OJHL that THEY are the highest level of Junior Hockey under the OHA. Yet, in their infinite wisdom, the OHA has decided against allowing the highest level of junior hockey in the southwestern part of the province.

But back in the day...it actually MEANT something to play Junior "A" or "B". Same as when I was growing up, Midget AAA was what you look forward to with the Air Canada Cup. Now, you are considered washed up if you play Midget AAA. Oh wait, the OHL has now legitimized it by holding another draft to try and keep as many players in the pipeline as possible and keep them away from thoughts of NCAA hockey!

For years, I have sat and scratched my head at the decisions being made by hockey people regarding structure! I recall HC saying they would never go to smaller ice for younger age groups because that "isn't who we are". Well, following the American lead, they have decided adopt this measure and in the meantime, accept all the pats on the back from their subservient associations!!

The notion of it being all about the kids and the game disappeared long ago! It is nothing more than a "stalinesque" organization hellbent on power, control and dictatorship!
RagingBS
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by RagingBS »

From the Elgin-Middlesex FAQ section
"REGISTRATION for the 2015-2016 season is $2,000.00 payable in 3 monthly installments (post-dated cheques for Sept 1, Oct 1 and Nov 1 payable to EMHA). There are no admission fees to regular season or playoff games. Players can recoup part or all of their registration by securing sponsors."

Please note the cost to play is 2K, I know teams run a budget as well that can only add 1K more to cover tournaments non parent coach expenses etc. This is nowhere close to the gouging that occurs in the OJ to the tune of 5-7K or more. Also of note, $0 gate revenue and the sponsor money is used to reduce the 2-3K all or part of the registration costs. The Ontario Junior model does not give the parent or more likely player if they are 18-20 the option to recoup any of their out of pocket expenses because the teams are collecting the money from all sources. I am sure some teams run at a loss but there is no way that many don't make a nice tidy profit. These teams survived for decades without fleecing the players.

Other than mandating full cages, I would be very interested to read what impact the GOJHL tax, OHA tax and whatever the OJHL tax is has had as far as the product on the ice. Previously players generally earned their way onto a junior team based on their skill and talent, it is becoming more and more common for those spots to be based backroom deals and financial ability instead. IMHO, this isn't a good direction to go. Junior hockey should be about putting the best talent on the ice instead of settling for just good talent with deep pockets.
cchlounger
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Re: why do players leave for the junior A leagues

Post by cchlounger »

Orion Hexamer, formerly of the Pelham Panthers has signed with the Mississauga Chargers of the OJHL.
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