Disparity in League

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Unhappy fan
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Disparity in League

Post by Unhappy fan »

Would someone explain to me the disparity in Junior "B" . It would appear some teams have money to burn and buy their way to championships. What happens to the less well heeled teams they appear to be the cellar dwellers every year. How is that a fair and level playing field , just seeing on this forum the money that was supposedly paid to Lambton shores is obscene.
cpt obvious
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by cpt obvious »

Unhappy fan wrote:Would someone explain to me the disparity in Junior "B" . It would appear some teams have money to burn and buy their way to championships. What happens to the less well heeled teams they appear to be the cellar dwellers every year. How is that a fair and level playing field , just seeing on this forum the money that was supposedly paid to Lambton shores is obscene.
No different than any other Junior hockey league. I feel it's on the teams themselves, if you need more money then go out and find it, not sit around and complain about those teams that do. You have to spend money in Junior hockey to be competitive, that's all it guarantees, unless you spend Caledonia money in a Jr B league..then you guarantee rings.
Unhappy fan
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Unhappy fan »

The difference being privately owned and community sponsored teams. There is a huge disparity in cash that is available. The privately owned teams way of doing business and community operated teams cash flow are like apples and oranges. A community sponsored team is very dependent on gate receipts and whatever else in the way of cash comes their way. Another huge issue is attracting players there is no comparison in where in where they would go. I can see in years to come that smaller market teams will be gone and the cash loaded ones is all that will be left.
ILuvHackey
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by ILuvHackey »

cpt obvious wrote:
Unhappy fan wrote:Would someone explain to me the disparity in Junior "B" . It would appear some teams have money to burn and buy their way to championships. What happens to the less well heeled teams they appear to be the cellar dwellers every year. How is that a fair and level playing field , just seeing on this forum the money that was supposedly paid to Lambton shores is obscene.
No different than any other Junior hockey league. I feel it's on the teams themselves, if you need more money then go out and find it, not sit around and complain about those teams that do. You have to spend money in Junior hockey to be competitive, that's all it guarantees, unless you spend Caledonia money in a Jr B league..then you guarantee rings.
I'm a fan of a team that generally has some money, and a good fanbase (average anywhere from 500-700 a game), but this is seriously stupid. Money just isn't out there. Less and less people are sponsoring teams. Less and less people are going to junior hockey games. Money is becoming scarcer by the day. There is 100% a have and have-not disparity in the league. Many of the teams who spend money have private ownership who essentially lose money by spending it on deals and such. The rest of the league are community owned teams who get by and have to penny pinch to put players on the ice and develop them. If the gap continues, those teams will be gone and there will be less opportunity for players as the league shrinks up.

It's easy to see.
Unhappy fan
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Unhappy fan »

How refreshing someone besides myself who actually sees what really is happening in Junior B hockey. The gap is growing wider every year and As I previously stated what will be left at the end of the day besides the "fat cat" owners with money to burn Sad state of affairs.
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by RocketGirl »

It was said to me last week that there are 3 types of teams now, privately owned, group owned and community owned. The group and community owned teams are tired of having to go out year after year after year and fundraise and cut costs and find the money somehow just so they can stay afloat and try to compete against the privately owned teams who can afford to treat it as a tax write-off.
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cpt obvious
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by cpt obvious »

ILuvHackey wrote:
cpt obvious wrote:
Unhappy fan wrote:Would someone explain to me the disparity in Junior "B" . It would appear some teams have money to burn and buy their way to championships. What happens to the less well heeled teams they appear to be the cellar dwellers every year. How is that a fair and level playing field , just seeing on this forum the money that was supposedly paid to Lambton shores is obscene.
No different than any other Junior hockey league. I feel it's on the teams themselves, if you need more money then go out and find it, not sit around and complain about those teams that do. You have to spend money in Junior hockey to be competitive, that's all it guarantees, unless you spend Caledonia money in a Jr B league..then you guarantee rings.
I'm a fan of a team that generally has some money, and a good fanbase (average anywhere from 500-700 a game), but this is seriously stupid. Money just isn't out there. Less and less people are sponsoring teams. Less and less people are going to junior hockey games. Money is becoming scarcer by the day. There is 100% a have and have-not disparity in the league. Many of the teams who spend money have private ownership who essentially lose money by spending it on deals and such. The rest of the league are community owned teams who get by and have to penny pinch to put players on the ice and develop them. If the gap continues, those teams will be gone and there will be less opportunity for players as the league shrinks up.

It's easy to see.
If the Community funded teams are committed to winning ie. Stratford, they will go out and find the sponsorship dollars needed to be competitive. If your team is a circus side show ie. St. Mary's, then it's tough to find committed sponsorship.
Private isn't always the way to winning either ie. Lambton Shores, St. Thomas Stars.
Look at the Strathroy Rockets before they let Gibson leave for the OHA office, community funded team as competitive as any other in the West for the longest time.
Just saying, yes the Caledonia's have driven some community funded teams to the outer circle but it always comes back around if those said teams are committed.
Lets be honest how much longer can this guy in Caledonia be happy owning a Jr.B team, I can see him taking his cigarettes and going to the Ojhl soon.
ILuvHackey
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by ILuvHackey »

cpt obvious wrote: If the Community funded teams are committed to winning ie. Stratford, they will go out and find the sponsorship dollars needed to be competitive. If your team is a circus side show ie. St. Mary's, then it's tough to find committed sponsorship.
Private isn't always the way to winning either ie. Lambton Shores, St. Thomas Stars.
Look at the Strathroy Rockets before they let Gibson leave for the OHA office, community funded team as competitive as any other in the West for the longest time.
Just saying, yes the Caledonia's have driven some community funded teams to the outer circle but it always comes back around if those said teams are committed.
Lets be honest how much longer can this guy in Caledonia be happy owning a Jr.B team, I can see him taking his cigarettes and going to the Ojhl soon.
Stratford used to get around 80K a year from the Cullitons alone in sponsorship dollars, which they've recently lost. That's on top of 1000 fans a game in ticket sales (they've sold out of season tickets this season). That's a team with a history and tradition that is something of an anomaly.

There are changes happening over the past 5 years or so, and it's going to start to become even more evident.

Yes you have to be committed to winning, but that's not alone going to ensure money. When teams have to pay 15K+ just to be involved on the top players via trade, it's easy to see why teams at the bottom struggle to get over the hump and are usually perennial 5-9 teams with the odd surprise run.
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jfvoll
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by jfvoll »

ILuvHackey wrote:Yes you have to be committed to winning, but that's not alone going to ensure money. When teams have to pay 15K+ just to be involved on the top players via trade, it's easy to see why teams at the bottom struggle to get over the hump and are usually perennial 5-9 teams with the odd surprise run.
Do these trade actually work out? Look at 2014-2015 when Chatham allegedly spent $25k on Gus Ford and couldn't make it out of the first round!

There's 2 ways of winning in Jr B, get young talented guys and go for it, or outspend and get veterans for a bigger window. Big money isn't always gonna win, look at Waterloo in 2013/2014. They had 3 16 year olds and only 1 20 year old!

As for trading for big money, I don't have a problem with it if the receiving teams uses it to better themselves long term. I'm more trustful of St. Thomas doing this than Lambton Shores
Unhappy fan
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Unhappy fan »

What chance do the smaller market teams have even attracting talent, as I said in my original post there is such a gap between the haves and the have nots. Throwing $ at new players doesn't guarantee success but when you don't have the cash to make offers your dead in the water and constantly relegated to the bottom of the standings. I think another factor totally removed from the money issue is how demoralizing it becomes to a group of young men who are in the bottom of the heap on a pretty well constant basis. After while you just stop trying, that's just human nature.
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jfvoll
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by jfvoll »

Unhappy fan wrote:What chance do the smaller market teams have even attracting talent, as I said in my original post there is such a gap between the haves and the have nots. Throwing $ at new players doesn't guarantee success but when you don't have the cash to make offers your dead in the water and constantly relegated to the bottom of the standings. I think another factor totally removed from the money issue is how demoralizing it becomes to a group of young men who are in the bottom of the heap on a pretty well constant basis. After while you just stop trying, that's just human nature.
How does Lambton Shores get Kyle Brothers, Adam Arseneault, Ethan Sarfati? These are all players Lambton Shores traded for money. The real onus is on Lambton's owner/GM.
Unhappy fan
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Unhappy fan »

Are you aware of who owns the Lambton shores Predators. Same fellow owns the London Majors baseball team. Is there a picture starting to take shape?
coachFloyd
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by coachFloyd »

on a side note
London Majors sign 3 new players from Puerto Rico for the 2017 season




jk
cpt obvious
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by cpt obvious »

Unhappy fan wrote:What chance do the smaller market teams have even attracting talent, as I said in my original post there is such a gap between the haves and the have nots. Throwing $ at new players doesn't guarantee success but when you don't have the cash to make offers your dead in the water and constantly relegated to the bottom of the standings. I think another factor totally removed from the money issue is how demoralizing it becomes to a group of young men who are in the bottom of the heap on a pretty well constant basis. After while you just stop trying, that's just human nature.
They have a chance by hiring and retaining Good hockey people.
If an organization allows these hockey dads looking to become something other than a hockey dad with no experience playing or coaching or managing, to run or have a say in the operation of the team then those teams are doomed to be bottom dwellers for as long as it continues.
On the other hand, if an organization is serious about putting together solid programs they will go out and find the best available hockey people around. To many non-hockey people are allowed to pretend to know how to run a Jr. hockey program with zero experience on their hockey resume. I say hockey resume because regardless of your profession outside of the rink it seldom translates into the rink, and we see it all the time ie. Lambton Shores, St. Thomas, Chatham.
So yes these community ran teams can compete for players because its not always about the money with these kids, stability, experience and comfort level plays a big part in where they choose to go and we all know they are the ones that get the final say. Teams that have revolving coaching doors will never compete for talent because there is no stability or foundation in place, that's a no-brainer,but for some of these hockey dads in positions of power they just don't get it.
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by RocketGirl »

As you can see, I've split out the topic from the Sarfati to Chatham one. This is a good topic, and needs to be discused, so I felt it needed it's own topic.
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Unhappy fan
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Unhappy fan »

the point I have tried to make is about the disparity in the funds available to spend on a good coach and top notch players. One poster's suggestion was simply find ways of getting the funds. Easier said then done. Every year the divide between the privately owned and financed teams and the community funded is growing wider. That is the reality as it exists. No more no less. Having pots of money doesn't insure a winning team, or securing good coaching staff but it sure helps.
Vairs61
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Vairs61 »

I have said on here before that the GOJHL should make a premier division with 8-12 top level teams. That way the so called money teams or top level teams would play against each other, and the teams that do not have the resources or the recruiting abilities would play against each other. This would level the playing field and make for a more competitive league/ divisions. The premier division could rival the OJHL and keep the better players in the GOJHL. It could be the best hockey outside of the OHL in Ontario.
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Unhappy fan »

Sounds like something worth considering except it would be really tough to differentiate between the upper and lower tier teams. What would you base the criteria for team selection on?
Vairs61
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Vairs61 »

Just look at the standings in the divisions the last several years and you can see which teams can consistently deliver top level teams. I would love to see a promotion relegation system like English soccer. This would give teams the opportunity to move up or down according.
I would much rather see Caledonia playing Lasalle, London, Stratford rather than Buffalo, Pelham or Fort Erie.
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by GOJHLfan1 »

Vairs61 wrote:Just look at the standings in the divisions the last several years and you can see which teams can consistently deliver top level teams. I would love to see a promotion relegation system like English soccer. This would give teams the opportunity to move up or down according.
I would much rather see Caledonia playing Lasalle, London, Stratford rather than Buffalo, Pelham or Fort Erie.
I agree but travel expenses stop that from happening
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Vairs61 »

I know the travel costs would be higher, but so to would the interest and better gates. Most of the top teams have the resources to cover those extra costs. If the league truly wants to be considered Jr A, put the best teams in a league/division against each other. I feel it would keep the better players and or younger players from moving to the OJHL and highlight the quality level of play the top teams can play at in the GOJHL.
The teams not in the top league/division could make up two other leagues/divisions to cut down on travel.
The distance between these teams is not that great. Most teams are within 3hrs of each other. There many leagues that would envy this travel area!!
cpt obvious
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by cpt obvious »

Honestly, the best solution is the OHA must step in and put a cap on player release fees. I'm pretty sure the OJHL has this in place already.
Players should be worth a "book value" dependent on several criteria. This would completely eliminate the Chathams and Caledonias from driving release fees through the roof because they can afford it.
This would also give every private or community owned team a chance to get into the game when it comes to player transactions. If a level playing field is what the small budget teams want, then this is the answer. It would allow a team to budget for 1,2,3,4...top end player(s) because the fees are outlined.
Thoughts?
Unhappy fan
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Unhappy fan »

Little by little the suggestions being made are are making what has become a tremendous issue into something more manageable, now we "collectively" have to convince the decision makers that a change in "junior b" is long overdue.
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Vairs61 »

I would like to see fixed player transfer prices, but I don't think that will level the playing field. I think the top players will still want to play on the better teams.
I feel if the GOJHL had two or three divisions based on wheather you are a top level team going for championships or a team with limited resources but are more about development of younger players, there would be a place in the GOJHL. It's more about getting teams in the right level of competion.
Let's take the top 4 teams in each division and call them one division and the rest make up division two. I am sure this would draw more scouts out to watch. Scouts want to see the development of players against top level teams. Time for the league to move forward by making changes within. There are great teams in the GOJHL, let's showcase these top teams in one division!!
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Marcie »

“It's definitely tough to compete against a team that spends a lot of money like that,” Rockets head coach Jason Glover said. “They go out and pick up a three-year OHL guy. They're a big, strong team. They're looking good.
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by DetroitFan »

Been a while but I had couldn't resist giving an opinion. The real problem started when the OHA started charging the players a registration fee. It gave the privately owned teams an edge if they offered to pay some or all of the fees for either the older players or all players. One of the local teams used it as a recruiting tool promising to pay the fees to players trying out for the team.

The Privately owned teams that offer big dollars for lower placing teams top players is also destroying the league. Both parties are to blame and especially Lambton Shores ownership who has been doing it since he bought the team.

There are some privately owned teams and most of the community teams, that try to remain loyal to their players by not adding top players late in the season through big dollar acquisitions. Staying honest and loyal to the local players that compete and develop through the season makes for a strong dressing room atmosphere and good credibility. Filling holes that happen through injuries and players leaving or quitting still happens but not by spending tens of thousands of dollars.

If you want to have better league parity amongst private and community teams then the OHA or GOJHL have to find a way to stop the top teams from paying players, or prying top players from weaker teams with big bucks. Also find a way to make sure all players are paying their own fees. Privately owned teams that have owners that want to win at all costs by spending their own money to do it, will eventually destroy the parity and competitiveness the GOJHL once had.
Unhappy fan
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Unhappy fan »

Right on the money with your comments!
HockeyGod
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by HockeyGod »

As we see in the past few weeks some teams have become sellers and some have become buyers.It seems that teams with deep pockets are paying crazy money to win a title.I guess some have forgotten what this league is all about, to groom players to get to the next level.The spending must stop or in the next 5yrs there will be many teams fold. With this all going on there has been a party of owners getting together to make suggestions to fix this problem,things should get interesting in the months to come
Vairs61
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by Vairs61 »

It's a simple fix, as I have said on here before. Make one division of all the top teams, the deep pocket teams. It would probably be the best division of Jr. Hockey in Ontario, and have interest of the scouts for both OHL and NCAA. The other two divisions in the GOJHL can be development of feeder divisions to the top league. This would keep the kids inside the GOJHL and not leaving to the OJHL.
GOJHLFAN-999
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Re: Disparity in League

Post by GOJHLFAN-999 »

Vairs61 wrote:It's a simple fix, as I have said on here before. Make one division of all the top teams, the deep pocket teams. It would probably be the best division of Jr. Hockey in Ontario, and have interest of the scouts for both OHL and NCAA. The other two divisions in the GOJHL can be development of feeder divisions to the top league. This would keep the kids inside the GOJHL and not leaving to the OJHL.
Very similar thought I had only have the top 2 or 3 from the GOJHL move up to the OJHL and have the bottom 2 or 3 from the OJHL move to the GOJHL. Have it adjusted every year based on previous years standings. After all we are all part of the OHA so there might as well be some synergies among the two levels.
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